Too Many Things[]
I just looked at the edits made to the Mystical Monkey Power, and while they are good edits. I think that we are placing too many items under this article.
For instance, what proof is there in the show that the Monkey Amulet, the Golden Banana, the Ancient Text, Yono the destroyer, the Tempus Simia, or the Han are in any way part of the Mystical Monkey Power granted by the Jade idols?
Just because something is magical in nature and has to do with monkeys doesn't automatically make it the same as the Mystical Monkey Power.
Thoughts on this?
Mknopp (talk) 18:01, February 1, 2013 (UTC)
Well, the phrase "mystical monkey power(s)" was used several times in ASiT in conjunction with the Tempus Simia, so 'fraid that one's a lock.
Hana was mentioned as a monkey mystic weapon, and Yono the opposing side of the same power, not to mention both tied into Yamanouchi, very big on matters MMP
Golden Banana is at best marginal, it prophesied the Ultimate Monkey Master
Ancient Text and Amulet are iffy.
I suppose the question is, if the term "mystical monkey power(s)" is a title/brand, or generic. Like the difference between Kleenex and tissues, or Crayola and crayons. Keeping in mind that "MMP" is purely a fanon-abbreviation, *anything* "mystical", "monkey", and (with)power(ful) may qualify. Just like all automobiles, firearms, ordinance, and airplanes are each regulated under their same laws local, national, and sometimes global.
Love Robin (talk) 19:10, February 1, 2013 (UTC)
Okay, so MMP is linked with the Tempus Simia through the show.
The MMP is used too specifically for me to see it as being a generic term. If it were, then that means that Kim should be able to use the Lotus Blade because he was subjected to a mystical power dealing in some way with monkeys. However, I haven't really seen anyone who thinks that Kim has MMP because of the amulet. Of course, if she is then I guess we can start saying that a lot of what Kim does in the show is due to her MMP. ;)
Also, if you look at the way the Jade idols were treated by Monty it isn't like just anything monkey and mystical could imbue one with "the" mystical monkey power.
Also, while Yamanouchi seems to be steeped in monkey stuff, there isn't really proof that they are only interested in "the" MMP that Ron has been subjected to.
I just don't see the way people use the term mystical monkey power to be a generic term meaning all things mystical dealing with monkeys.
Mknopp (talk) 19:53, February 1, 2013 (UTC)
Well, far as we know, Kim is unaware of the Lotus Blade. She certainly has never handled it, so no idea what would happen. There is, however, a distinction between being *imbued* with a power which is mystically monkey in nature, and being *touched* by it. The Amulet (partially) transmogrified her, but then was reversed (with Science!, so no guarantee everything was removed). It so happens that *I* seem to be the only one I know who remembers Kim's brush with monkey magic, and yes, *I* fully intend that if Kim ever lays hand on the Lotus Blade, *she* will be able to alter the blade length (ala Sword of Omens), but probably only once when it seems she losing. Which, BTW I also will attribute to Yori as touched by the MMP while pregnant with The Han… :P It is also a key factor in one of my current fusion fics, just not yet revealed.
Anyway, Kim with Lotus Blade, not a useful data point as she and it never interacted. As for what she does, she was doing it long before Full Monkey, so doubtful it did much to her. Allllthoughhh, we did have that convo about Kim's shift to being like a "super soldier"…
Yet I repeat, I *noted* Kim as touched of mystical monkey, and touched is not the same as imbued.
And Items need not imbue to utilize. The Tempus Simia did not Imbue MMP, it nonetheless was specifically mentioned as an item of MMP. Which is why I have to wonder if it was ever Mystical Monkey Power, or simply mystical monkey power; just because Fiske spoke the words with reverence doesn't mean they should have been.
Love Robin (talk) 20:59, February 1, 2013 (UTC)
Really? You want to argue the semantics of two words that are not used on the show to describe two imaginary uses of magic? Well, in my personal experience with mystical objects related to monkeys touching them in fact imbues the toucher with the mystical properties. Oh wait, I don't have any personal experience with mystical objects of any nature. ;)
Now, the point about whether there actually exist a distinct thing such as "the" Mystical Monkey Power, that is a very valid point. We have assumed that there are mystical objects related to monkeys; monkey amulet, ancient monkey text, mystical banana, etc. and a completely separate and distinct mystical power referred to as The Mystical Monkey Power. Which given what Monty says, is not necessarily true. And the more that I think about it the more that I agree.
We do need to decide how we want to handle this though. Because, if we decide that mystical monkey powers is generic then there likely shouldn't be an article, but a category for it.
- Thoughts on this?
- Brand and Generic. Kleenex is nearly synonymous with "tissue", and regardless of a product's actual brand name some people will still tend to ask for "a kleenex". I think a simple re-working of the article to discuss MMP as a Generic, with what the Idols imbues into Ron Rufus and Fiske as the one which is most often meant when the phrase comes up, but can also include yada…
- Also, it's not just semantics on two words, but what they imply regarding Condition and State… I can breath on you and my breath in touching you can evoke reactions (chill, tickle, disturb fine hairs, dry wet spot, annoy, arouse, etc); I can perform MtM Respiration, and my breath can imbue life back into you. OR, you can splash a cup with water and make it wet for a while, or you can imbue fluid into the cup and fill it; at least until you empty it when it will once again be wet for a while. Perhaps 'paint' is more apropos than water as it leaves behind a residual presence as a better analogy to 'been touched'.
- With Kim and the Amulet, she was like a filled cup, arguably imbued until emptied and leaving her simply 'touched' by it. Ron is still filled with MMP, as far as we know, so presuming he didn't burn himself out in Grad2, his condition remains 'imbued'.
- Love Robin (talk) 03:14, February 3, 2013 (UTC)
This is one that I think needs separate articles for each of the items.
Now, as to handling the prominent fanon that "The Mystical Monkey Power" is something unique and separate from mystical monkey power. I am leaning toward making a redirect for the mystical monkey power article which points to the category mystical monkey objects. At the top of that article we place the "you may" template at the top which links to the mystical monkey power granted by the jade idols, which is what many people mean when they say The Mystical Monkey Power.
Then in the category page we discuss the genericness of the term and that the type that the jade idols granted is just one type.
Thoughts on this method?
Mknopp (talk) 16:30, February 3, 2013 (UTC)
- I agree on the "you may" template and the category, because I always looked at it this way:
- 1) Ron, Rufus, and Monkey Fist have Mystical Monkey Power (Type A, if that makes it easier). They received it, it's now part of them forever, and they can draw on it at various times. Because that's how that specific power type works.
- 2) Kim had MMP Type B, which was specific to that amulet, and specifically turned the wearer into a monkey. And because she got rid of the amulet, and was no longer a monkey after that episode, obviously she doesn't have that power type anymore. And if it were the exact same power as Type A, it wouldn't have turned her into a monkey, and Monkey Fist wouldn't have wanted it in the first place, because he already had Type A then.
- 3) MMP Types A and B are just two power aspects of the overall mystic monkey legends, which encompasses everything ever associated with mystics and monkeys. But I don't think that means everything should automatically be assumed to have a portion of the very same MMP Type A that Ron has. Example: even if the Tempus Simia has some mystic monkey power, we've certainly never seen Ron or the others able to bend time on their own. Similar name, entirely different power (Type C).
- 4) Because Monkey Fist wasn't satisfied just having MMP Type A (since Ron and Rufus have that as well), he was constantly in search of additional mystic monkey power types (B-Z). In addition to the MMP Type A he already had. And I honestly think he would have needed them all to be Supreme Monkey Ruler or whatever, because someone could always snatch up the MMP types that he lacked and beat him with them.
- So I would suggest the actual name "Mystic Monkey Legends" be the page with all the artifacts and powers listed, while "Mystical Monkey Power" be devoted specifically to the Type A that Ron, Rufus, and Monkey Fist have. Or if anyone thinks it necessary, give each power type and object its very own page so that people can see exactly how they're different. I said B-Z, but there's really only about 6 different powers, not counting the objects that don't actually give any extra power to a person. And even those non-power objects could get a page if it came down to that. I'd be willing to work on that, anyway. - Dap00 02:12, February 4, 2013 (UTC)
I am now very much in favor of making the term mystical monkey power a fully generic term related to mystical abilities granted by items of a monkey theme.
Each of these items should get their own article which not only discusses the item, but also the mystical monkey powers it provides and who has had/does have them. Then each of these should be placed in the mystical monkey artifacts category.
The mystical monkey power article will be changed to a redirect to the mystical monkey power category page with the "you may" template at the top leading to the mystical monkey power provided by the jade monkey statues.
This makes the most sense because every example of mystical monkey power is related to an item. Thus, it makes the most sense to have that information in the article about that item. It also completely eliminates the problem of "type A" and "type B" talk of the flavor of mystical monkey power. It is simply the mystical monkey power granted by artifact X.
Thoughts on this?
--
Actually I think that unless the show clearly shows MMP being used (i.e. Exchange, Monkey Fist Strikes, Graduation Pt 2 are obvious) I'd be very skeptical about assigning any of Ron's exploits to MMP. ASIT is a great example. There is absolutely no evidence or even indication that Ron used MMP. Isn't there a TV trope for when a character gets extremely mad and says "You've gone too far!" aka Ron when he gets mad at Shego for separating him fron KIm and destroying Bueno Nacho.
Even Big Bother has no real evidence that Ron uses MMP to fight the monkey ninjas. Arguments about realism are useless as this is a cartoon.
Probably-Possible (talk) 20:32, February 28, 2014 (UTC)
- Keep in mind the Kim Possible Wiki is written primarily from an In-Universe Perspective(POV). Meaning except for the necessary meta/realworld info restricted to their areas, everything else deals with the people and events as real, and as having already occurred.
- And even though the Producers admit to "accidental continuity", we still strive to distill and homogenized everything for the sake of casual visitors, avid fans, and others researching canon.
- Besides, we're not *arguing*. Leastwise not most of us. We're *discussing*. At most *debating*. --Love Robin (talk) 00:09, March 1, 2014 (UTC)
- Well I'm definitely not trying to argue. I use argument only as a word for one explanation or point of view. I understand the in universe POV. But we have to make inferences based on what we see on screen and understand. We don't have a mind reader for the characters. My point is still that there are only 3 points where Ron clearly uses MMP. All other points can be described by Ron's own fighting skills, or by the logic of the in-universe (Ron being super strong at the end of ASIT does not require a logical explanation beyond extreme anger.)
- Probably-Possible (talk) 18:43, March 3, 2014 (UTC)
Amulet[]
I believe the proper name of the artifact is "The Amulet of the Monkey King".
BTW, can Monkey Fist really be considered either an Owner -or- User? As he was in the process of stealing it he definitely was not its Owner –Not even certain if it belonged to the Chinese Museum it was on display in, or simply on tour with them– and he never had the opportunity to actually Use it. Desired it, but nothing else.
Also, we need a cap of it as a tattoo on Kim's neck.
Love Robin (talk) 16:36, February 4, 2013 (UTC)
- Fixed.